Helmet Poll...which helmet....

[PAB]

Hi Ira,

Contrary of what you think, I really understand Dean's point, no need to put more analogies or explain them in great details.

Though, you really got me wrong. What make you think student Arai is better than student Scorpion if you did not test them. The way they are dressed (the price they are sold)? To me it is just plain nothing.

Now, if I see comparative tests with a nice protocol PROVING Arai/Shoie is safer, I will reconsider my position.

Now, everyone is free to buy what suite himself, I just expose my reasoning.

PS: It would be nice if you can drop the personal attack.

[Quick10]

Hey it's your choice, spend what you think you are worth. I'm only worth $250 but I would like to spend the $600.

[Bonzai]

Contrary of what you think, I really understand Dean's point, no need to put more analogies or explain them in great details.

No you don't, and your continued remarks still FURTHER prove you have no idea of I was trying to say, nor that once again you understand the value of a $1.

Though, you really got me wrong. What make you think student Arai is better than student Scorpion if you did not test them. The way they are dressed (the price they are sold)? To me it is just plain nothing.

You keep talking about a single aspect of the helmet determining it's final price. I'm saying if you go BEYOND the DOT / Snell rating there are OTHER factors that contribute to a final price. Get it now? Remember my Corvette / Cavalier analogy?

Now, if I see comparative tests with a nice protocol PROVING Arai/Shoie is safer, I will reconsider my position.

Here you go again, focusing right back on ONLY the safety rating.

Now, everyone is free to buy what suite himself, I just expose my reasoning.

And your reasoning is WRONG. You reason that since there are NO tests that prove a Shoei/Arai or SAFER than any other helmet; that their higher price is not warranted because they rate the same in tests.

Why did you buy your Scorpion helmet for $140.00 when there are other helmets on the market both Snell and DOT approved that are cheaper. I could argue that your Scorpion is not worth the $140.00 bucks because el-cheapo helmet at $70.00 has Snell/DOT approval, hence $140.00 is not warranted.

NOW do you see the error in your OWN purchase? You WASTED $70.00 because you could have gotten the el-cheapo helmet for $70.00 less.

Now I'm sure you are a smart man and have personal preferences and TASTES. You probably looked at the El-Cheapo helmets and then looked at the Scorpions and decided upon the Scorpion for OTHER aspects besides the Snell/DOT rating. If you come back and say the OTHER aspects besides Snell/DOT did NOT effect your purchase decision, then you TRULY did waste $70.00 based on Snell/DOT requirements ONLY.

But if you come back and say that there were OTHER things you liked about the Scorpion (aside from Snell/DOT) that effected your purchase decision then you are int he same boat as we are.

We payed 2x more for Shoei/Arai becasue there were things we liked OTHER than the Snell/DOT rating. You did the SAME thing in your Scorpion purchase decision.

You have a perfectly good argument if you say that Scorpions are JUST as safe as Arai/Shoei because they passed the same Snell/DOT test. CORRECT, no argument here.

But you said that Arai/Shoei are not WORTH more money because they have the same Snell/DOT as Scorpions.

DO ... YOU ... FINALLY ... GET ... IT ... NOW? Apple to Apples, Oranges to Oranges, don't argue about Apples and use Oranges as your proof. It just makes you look silly, and you are not that silly. I know.

[Bonzai]

PS: you should consider throwing away your 1999 Arai RX-7 Corsair, Arai suggest replacing their helmet every 5 years.

Um, I do. that Arai RX-7 was the one I went down on my 08 ZX-14 and being 9 years old it doesn't even show a scratch, inside or out. I had it re-certified.

I replaced it with a 2009 Shoei X-Eleven, both top of the line helmets for Arai/Shoei. I use the Arai for track days, Shoei for street.

[401k]

I don't even like the safety argument that is being put forth. I believe that even bestowing a DOT certification on a helmet doesn't necessarily make one helmet just as safe as another. Both these helmets are DOT certified, which one would you rather have on in a crash?

[Bonzai]

I don't even like the safety argument that is being put forth. I believe that even bestowing a DOT certification on a helmet doesn't necessarily make one helmet just as safe as another. Both these helmets are DOT certified, which one would you rather have on in a crash?

Agreed Ira ... viewtopic.php?f=30&t=3165

[PAB]

How can we argue so much when we agree?

It is obvious that if you prefer the comfort of a particular brand and agree to pay for it, I don't see any reason you should not go for it. it is like when I said I tested several brand and selected the scorpion. Not for the price, not for the color, for the comfort that fit ME. This is all subjective.

I just want to remember that this discussion re-started when Bad_Tiller said

These are the same people that [...] wont spend a couple hundred more on something that could save their life

So I focused here on the safety issue, and on the only objective feature: the test.

If the Cavalier and the Corvette have the same rating on the Euro NCAP, there is no reason saying the Corvette is safer and people should not try to save pennies on a model that could save their life.

[Bonzai]

It is obvious that if you prefer the comfort of a particular brand and agree to pay for it, I don't see any reason you should not go for it. it is like when I said I tested several brand and selected the scorpion. Not for the price, not for the color, for the comfort that fit ME. This is all subjective.

I just want to remember that this discussion re-started when Bad_Tiller said

These are the same people that [...] wont spend a couple hundred more on something that could save their life

So I focused here on the safety issue, and on the only objective feature: the test.

If the Cavalier and the Corvette have the same rating on the Euro NCAP, there is no reason saying the Corvette is safer and people should not try to save pennies on a model that could save their life.

Well, you threw us all off course when you stated ...

Arai and Shoei are expensive considering they are not proved better than any other DOT and Snell approved helmet.

But I get where you are coming from now.

So answer this ... is it "Le Femmes" or "Les Femmes" since we have our attention, lol.

[Bad_Tiller]

Sorry fellas...didnt mean to stir the pot. My "opinion" on helmets is based on the following factors...in no particular order:
1. Safety rating
2. comfort...do I want to wear this bloody thing as it does nothing sitting on your shelf at home
3. Fit
4.wind noise
5. Head buffeting...wind tunnel testing
6. Does it make my melon more or less visible going down the road???
7. and this ones important...Does the company know what they are doing.
Maybe this is just a feel good for me but I know that Shoei has been making helmets since 1960. I dont know about you guys but when I put my a*s on the line by getting on my bike that I paid alot more for than the couple of hundred bucks in question, I want a helmet made by guys that have been in the business for a long time....With a proven track record. Again this is just my opinion. Everyone is entitled to that. Safety rating is nice but....just my $.02. Ride safe!

[401k]

First off, BadTiller, thumbs up on your number 6. That's something I've never considered when buying a helmet, but its a good thing to be thinking about.

About the argument...

Arai and Shoei are expensive considering they are not proved better than any other DOT and Snell approved helmet.

Like Dean said, if you had said Arai and Shoei are not proven SAFER, then we could all agree.

But safer and better are two different things. Using a condom is safer. Not using a condom is better.

[OAM]

I just spent some time drafting a nice informational reply to this thread only to have not saved it! So when I went to submit it, it timed out on me, lost forever
Anyway, rather than type it all up again...I'm just going to host a "Helmet Tech Night." I have researched head injuries and motorcycle helmet safety for years and hopefully I can sort out some of the debate. Remember, this is and always will be a debate.

Ciao,
Michael

[PAB]

is it "Le Femmes" or "Les Femmes" since we have our attention, lol.

Definitly "Les Femmes" no doubt about it

Like Dean said, if you had said Arai and Shoei are not proven SAFER, then we could all agree.
But safer and better are two different things.

You are 100% correct, I should have said safer, not better. My excuses for this.

Using a condom is safer. Not using a condom is better

LOL and so explicit!

lost forever

Too bad. Let us know when you will hold the clinic, I sure don't want to miss it.